I know a few people who are in to conspiracy theories, one guy says he wants to spend all his time researching it. They can see something is wrong and want to look into it, dedicating lots of time towards finding out more. What do you all think, is this a worthwhile pursuit? Or once you have realised/acknowledged this do you think it's more productive to focus on solutions?
Disclaimer: the opinions and ideas presented on this forum are not representative of the Zeitgeist Movement UK
Don't see the point of pursuing conspiracy theories. For a start you're never going to convince a believer that the world isn't being run by the Illuminati, the Elders of Zion, the Rothschilds or Reptiles from Outer Space. And how are you going to identify which of these is the real conspiracy anyway?
The fact is that there is no world conspiracy (if there really was it would have to involve so many people that it would be impossible to keep it a secret). It's just that there appears to be to be to some as otherwise it's difficult for them to understand what's happening in the world. In reality the world is in the grip of incontrollable and blindly operating world market forces, which are impersonal. Nobody controls the world. That's the problem!
Having said this, while there is no one Big World Conspiracy there are certainly lots of smaller conspiracies, eg to make money or seize or maintain political power.
In many respects conspiracy theories are pretty fruitless in gaining facts which can be backed up with evidence. On the small scale they may well occur but is it really worth the effort tracking them down when the bigger picture strongly suggests we need to concentrate our efforts on bringing about a change where a conspiracy is not going to get off the ground?
Ok - so it seems like we have a general agreement that it is pointless for these theorists to spend any effort learning more about (global) conspiracies.
It seems to me that they share similar concerns to us, in that they can see there's something wrong in the world and want to spend some time looking into it (presumably with a view of helping to fix it eventually), but they get all caught up in the stories and inconsistencies instead, trying to find an answer where there isn't one. The reptiles one particularly annoys me, this guy I know won't listen to reason when I tell him how stupid it all is. Anyway, what's the best way to talk to these people and convince them to spend their time on helping to increase awareness about the monetary system instead?
Maybe: "Ok, assume your theory is true... " then follow up with how all the ways to expose it will be quashed and fail, except implementing an RBE which will expose and stop the conspiracy by taking the control away. Would this be a good approach?
How about directly trying to debunk the theories, is that worth the effort?
Or perhaps just ignore them and spend our time talking to other people?
Does anyone have any other ideas? Or comments on which of these might work best and why?
It seems to me that they share similar concerns to us, in that they can see there's something wrong in the world and want to spend some time looking into it (presumably with a view of helping to fix it eventually), but they get all caught up in the stories and inconsistencies instead, trying to find an answer where there isn't one. The reptiles one particularly annoys me, this guy I know won't listen to reason when I tell him how stupid it all is. Anyway, what's the best way to talk to these people and convince them to spend their time on helping to increase awareness about the monetary system instead?
Maybe: "Ok, assume your theory is true... " then follow up with how all the ways to expose it will be quashed and fail, except implementing an RBE which will expose and stop the conspiracy by taking the control away. Would this be a good approach?
How about directly trying to debunk the theories, is that worth the effort?
Or perhaps just ignore them and spend our time talking to other people?
Does anyone have any other ideas? Or comments on which of these might work best and why?
It depends on what type of conspiracy they are hung up on. Like amonetarist suggests world elite conspiracies are easy to debunk because so many people would be in on it there is no chance of keeping it a secret. But although you may successfully debunk them it does not necessarily mean they will accept your explanation. In fact they may even accuse you of being part of the conspiracy! The reality is that its nigh on impossible to rationalise the irrational.
Yeah - I suppose it wouldn't do us any good to have such people going round and spouting RBE related ideas mixed in with their conspiracy stuff. Shame really as I know a few who do actually get the idea of an RBE and like it, just they spend their time looking into other stuff.
The funny thing is, I only got on to Zeitgeist through my interest in so-called 'conspiracy theories'.
What sets Peter Joseph apart from other 'conspiracy theorists' was that he has described a mechanism by which conspiracies are inevitable. That mechanism, as he explained it, derives from the ethos of competition which is deeply rooted in society. In this way he has allowed me to rationalise much of that which I saw as irrational in the world.
When considering 'conspiracy theories' we should remember that the theory of the terror network known as Al Qaeda is as much a 'conspiracy theory' as any other which is given that label. All I am saying here is that you should give as much credibility to journalism and the news media as you do to any other researcher; they are equally fallible.
All of us are theorists; I maintain that there is nothing wrong with theorising, of any kind.
Theories about conspiracies are bound to be labelled 'conspiracy theories', but, why people should be prejudiced against such theories, I do not understand.
I also do not understand why those involved in this movement are so keen to distance themselves from 'conspiracy theories'. Isn't the whole rejection of the monetary system, the drive towards RBE, based on a recognition that current money system is a monumental conspiracy?
Peter Joseph is the ultimate conspiracy theorist for me, because he has shown how me a simple mechanism which explains the root of all conspiracies (real or imagined).
Actually I was going to mention that we shouldn't write off the less far-out conspiracy theorists as, after all, this is where Peter Joseph came from.
I think a distinction should be drawn between particular conspiracies (which exist and can be exposed) within the system and theories that the whole world is controlled by a single, secret conspiracy (which is not the case). Having said this, even this second group have grasped that there is something wrong with the world and so should logically see the solution as some change at world level. So perhaps they're not all hopeless cases.
The trouble is most of them see the answer as a retreat into national isolation and protectionism as a way of breaking up the "New World Order" whereas what we need is, precisely, a new world order, not any old New World Order of course, but one based on the planet's resources becoming the common heritage of all the world's people. It's the only way forward.
1. Why do you think this distinction should be drawn?
2. How do you know that this is not the case? Or, if you find it more reasonable, how can you assert that there is not one single, secret conspiracy which seeks to control the world?
There, very clearly, are many examples of conspiracies to control the world, secret and open.
You should not seek to make broad generalistions by categorising conspiracy theories by some arbitrary method, but to maintain objectivity you should treat each case on its own merits.
I think the problem isn't so much the theories themselves, but the types of people who keep latching on to them and can't see past it once they get all embroiled in it. I'm not against conspiracy theories, in fact I believe that 9/11 was an inside job of some sort - I just don't see the point in arguing about it (from either side) or trying to learn every detail or trying to expose it. In my opinion it's a fruitless exercise because it really doesn't matter in the scheme of things, what matters is getting rid of money in a sensible and safe way to progress humanity to the next form of society as soon as possible. Some may argue that exposing such things will help to do this, and they could have a point, but I personally see it as wasted time and effort that could be spent on more positive and productive methods.
Although I don't agree with dedicating our whole lives to proving conspiracies, I did hear an interesting argument recently. It was on a talk show about 9/11 - a conspiracy which has enough evidence supporting it to be beyond reasonable doubt - and they were saying that things like this are the weakest link in the chain. If we can show the people that the Government have, are and will do things like this then we've planted a seed which can then grow.
I myself would most likely not be here if I hadn't started reading up on 9/11 several years ago and I'm sure others have taken similar paths. The problem is, as everyone has already said in this thread, is that it's so difficult to convince people of anything slightly outside what they've been told because as soon as you try they put up that barrier and dismiss you as a conspiracy nut. Even Noam Chomsky has been doing this for years!
I'm undecided on whether or not conspiracy theories are useful or harmful to our movement, but what do you guys think about this ^ argument?
I suppose conspiracies are a good way for people to start paying attention and start thinking outside the bounds of what we are led to believe. Unfortunately the downside is that some people can become quite obsessed with them and to me they seem to stop thinking rationally and start to believe any weird old story. It's almost like they become conditioned to blindly believe anything that sounds conspiracy-like.
I prefer an approach which means I don't need to decide one way or the other if any specific conspiracy theory is true or not. I'd rather get on with a project than waste time researching something that may or may not ever come into play - if it turns out I was naive by not considering the possibility of some conspiracy being true then so be it, start again with a new set of beliefs.
How can you state that Jacque has gone down in your estimations from a vague response on shoutbox...
He never stated what he believed about the illuminati?
For all we know he may have ment, that he did believe they once existed. I wouldn't be so quick to judge from the sentence put forward.
Still waters run deep...!!!
We are all members of spaceship earth, lets fly this baby in the right direction.
I did say "in that case" but I hope you are right. In fact I want you to be right. Perhaps Realityshark can elaborate or any of the other 300 or so there say what they heard or thought they heard.
I have been investigating the UFO phenomena for 5 years and this has led me, all be it indirectly, to zeitgeist.. The problem with conspiracy is the word its self.. "Conspiracy" is a powerful word, when used it can crackpot the most comprehensable ideas. It is a word that has stemmed from the mainstream media. What we have proposed (the world of ufology) is that there is only 2 theories ... OFFICIAL THEORIES and UNOFFICIAL THEORIES, the sooner we stop using the word conspiracy, the sooner people can stop giggling and ridiculing peoples ideas which have weight behind them (the 9/11 truth movement is a shining example). once again a conspiracy theory is AN UNOFFICIAL THEORY and come on everybody, we know the official governmental theories are the crackpot ones so lets start mocking and putting down there ideas which frankly seem to be the biggest load of bullplop out there!
To talk of UFOs (unidentified flying objects) is already to beg the question by suggesting that the observed phenomena are "flying" and are "objects". The technically correct term would be Unidentified Aereal Phenomena (UAPs). Most so-called UFO sightings have turned out to have been things like freak weather conditions, optical illusions, planes, hoaxes, etc. There have been some government cover-ups but these have not been to cover up evidence of alien spaceships but to cover up secret experiments on rockets and planes. In fact at times governments may well have encouraged speculation about UFOs to deflect attention from the experiments they were carrying out on new and more deadly weapons of mass destruction.
The "unofficial theory" that Earth is being visited by Aliens from Outer Space is not worth taking seriously nor are those who do take it seriously. ZM should avoid being associated with such theories like the plague. Otherwise the claim to be committed to the scientific method would be seriously compromised.
I agree although no one was saying zm should be associated with such theories, all i was using it for was a gerneralised example. The word conspiracy can be used to crackpot anything at all, the first zeitgeist film was touted by the mainstream as conspiracy. the point that was trying to be made was the word conspiracy needs to be eradicated all together due to the powerful nature of the word its self...too many people take to much seriously I personally dont believe nothing until I see it with my own eyes, although the evidence is compelling. many people wouldn't take the 9/11 unofficial theory seriously neither, should they be taken seriously or just be treated as crack heads? as is in the UK, the unofficial theory proposed for the 7/7 incident makes much more sense than the official theory but again because it's not the accepted governmental theory should we ostracise the people who dont believe the government story because they believe in something different?? I couldn't say what exists & what doesn't exist but all I was saying was take the power away from the word, I didn't think it would get insulting, I take nothing uncertain seriously but I keep an open mind to everything.
Here the most credible UFO story I've heard.
"We have been reading the news on your internet,” the alien spokesman continued, "and we wish to condole with you on your recession. Hundreds of your schools were going to be rebuilt or refurbished, and now very few of them are. A sad business!" He shook his head. "So there are no people available to do all this rebuilding."
"Oh yes"” I assured him. "There are two and a half million unemployed in this country, including lots of builders, plasterers, plumbers, electricians, and so on – and lots more of the jobless could quickly learn these skills. The country is full of people who could teach all these useful trades."
"I see!" said the alien. "So it's bricks, and cement, and pipework, and paint, electric wiring and so on you are short of."
"Not a bit of it! Since the recession, builders' merchants' yards up and down the country are full of all this stuff."
"But perhaps the authorities are keeping all these materials in reserve for other important building jobs, in case you run short of raw materials?"
"No, no, nothing like that. All the raw materials – clay for bricks, metal for pipes and wires, colour for paints – there's more than enough, up and down the country."
The alien – and his friends – appeared puzzled. Then he brightened up.
"Ah, I see what it must be. Transport! You've got all these things, but you can't get them to where they are so desperately wanted."
"Not a bit of it,” I insisted. I didn't want him to think we were that backward. "We have fleets of great trucks, under-used because of the recession. The country is crossed with excellent roads, well surfaced with tarmac. All these materials could be delivered anywhere in Britain within hours."
The aliens went into a huddle, and jabbered away in their own language. Then the spokesman piped up again.
"Let's get this straight. You people here in Britain all want these schools to be built or repaired. You have plenty of people standing around idle who would love to do all the work, if only because their children are being educated in inadequate and ill-equipped schools. You have all the materials, and all the transport you need to get them where they are wanted. So – excuse me if I seem a bit obtuse – why don't you just do it?"
"We haven't got the money, of course!"
A longer pause this time.
"Er – what is this 'money?"
I smiled. How could anyone not know that?
"You know – money, dibs, spondulicks, the ready! Coins – little round bits of metal, though most of it is paper, nowadays. High grade paper, of course, with nice designs on it – in colour, too."
"This paper,” said the alien, with a baffled expression. "What does it do? Can you use it instead of bricks? Or instead of slates on the roof?"
"No, of course not!" Privately I thought that surely space voyagers who have been able to journey billions of miles could get hold of such a simple idea. I tried to explain. "People hand it to each other. Well-off people have to hand some of these bits of paper to the government, then someone hands some of it to the people who make bricks or carry them along the motorway. The actual builders and pipe-layers and so on get some bits of paper each Friday."
More bewildered conversation among the aliens.
"This paper – high-grade paper as you say, with coloured designs – can't keep the rain out, or hold the roof up, or carry water or electricity round the new buildings?"
"No, of course not", I said, laughing. "It would just collapse if you put any strain on it, and any water in a paper pipe would just run away. And if you tried to make electric cables out of paper they would probably catch fire!"
"But if you don't have these pieces of coloured paper, even though they are only feeble, useless stuff,” said the alien, "you can't have these schools rebuilt and so on?"
"Exactly," I said. "Now you've got it. Without these pieces of paper, no food is grown or eaten, no clothes are made, no buildings go up – nothing happens. We all have to pass these pieces of paper around to each other, or everything comes to a halt. In fact most of us here on Earth spend a large part of our time handing these pieces of paper on to other people. Every organisation has many people who spend their lives writing down figures about all these pieces of paper: doing sums, all day. In fact some great concerns don't do anything else – banks, credit card companies, insurance companies, people concerned with revenue and taxation – all of them spend their lives fiddling with these bits of paper."
The aliens all looked at each other. I saw several of them pointing a finger to their own foreheads, and making a kind of circular motion with the finger, while pulling a face. I wonder what that means in alien language?
After some more unintelligible conversation, the spokesman said that they had decided to get back in their flying saucer and get away as soon as possible. I thought I heard him say something like, "I thought we were told there was intelligent life on this planet!" but perhaps I mis-heard.
That's great, who wrote it, what's the source?
Nice well I like it, tell your friend.
lol
Diverting the thread, I'm afraid. :oops: Nothing to do with Conspiracy Theorists.
But amonetariste's friend's charming tale reminded me of this video of Alan Watts talking on Money:
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvBKR5GPCWc[/video]
"Only after the last tree has been cut down. Only after the last river has been poisoned. Only after the last fish has been caught. Only then will you find that money cannot be eaten." Cree Prophecy.
Awesome, very good way of flipping it all on its head - I'm sure when I use some of those analogies on people (or rather truths, since the way everyone else thinks is the analogy) it will really *really* get them thinking about it.
I'm really concerned by this thread. There certainly are conspiracies as shown in Addendum by the conspiratist's input but to go down paths of 'unreasonable' and pure 'whacky' are of no help to our movement. We need to maintain a reasonable and realistic balance of world order and the related issues, I have heard nothing to the contrary in either PJ's or JF's speeches about core values and the RBE. Once we are beyond our immediate probems and settled into a RBE we can readily explore all possibilities in every other sense and dimension. This is going to be fundamental to humanity's next voyage of discovery.
Core values are the point here. We are not the Sun or the NotW newspapers, we don't have vested interests, we are not interested in promoting ideas for the sake of their self interest. We really want to get to the crux of what we need to do to not only survive but to prosper and flourish through time. The core ideas of the movement have been set out and we know that governments are corrupt so are corporates, probably more so. We know that the monetary system is the root of corruption. Why diverge to aliens or the illuminati? They are of no relevance to our issues right now in a specific sense, if they become so it will not be the sole responsibility of TZM. Keep focused on what we want to achieve as a movement and question your motives if you think you believe aliens or the illuminati are really to blame for our present predicament I really don't think you should be here. It is important for the credibility of the movement to reveal the truth as it is seen without resorting to fantasy. Science...
This should be posted on the global site, but with the link highlighted - which you failed to do in your response to jhabbott.
A remarkable but nevertheless realistic analogy which hits the target spot on. My congratulations to the author.
Really like the short story too. Great analogy.
Whilst the UK site has been down I've been looking at various posts on the main site which have led me to view videos that I hadn't previously known about. Namely the Edge Productions interview with TVP and a two part on youtube of a Q&A with PJ as part of the Luminopolis event. In both the term 'illuminati' was used so now I have reference and context to its useage by PJ and JF. I don't believe in either case the term referred to the 'Dan Brown - Da Vinci Code' type depiction of the Spanish inquistion or the fanatic French Catholics but only to a general defintion which is to have special knowledge of a subject or situation.
I have no doubt that 'special knowledge', through espionage or corporate deception and collusion, is common place. I feel that I may have sounded a little harsh in my previous post where I dismissed reference to the illuminati as unreasonable and whacky. Just goes to prove Jaque's assertion about using specific language that can't be misinterpreted...
By that definition, it seems like we are the illuminati, we have gained special knowledge and become somewhat enlightened through thinking past the conditioning and the mainstream propaganda
Bad typo on my part 'Dan Brown - Da Vinci Code' type depiction of the Spanish inquistion.. should have read 'Dan Brown - Da Vinci Code' type depiction or the Spanish inquistion...
amonetariste's point and jhabbott's response are profoundly correct. Enlightenment is what this movement is about. Technology has managed to pull us out of the dark ages and coupled with science has brought us where we are today. We are at the most significant turning point for determining the survival of humanity and likely most other species on the Earth. The RBE is the only viable proposition on the table.
Seems appropriate continue to post on this topic regarding the direct accusation by Ahmadinejad regarding 9/11.
Not sure if any of you have see the topic on the US site by Peter Joseph but he has made some changes to the original Zeitgeist movie, now called Zeitgeist 2010, and released a companion source guide to respond to his critics.
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&I...
This seems particularly relevant in light of Ahmadinejad's UN speech. PJ has provided 114 points to be answered before any US involvement regarding 9/11 can be dispelled. This could be a great publicity opportunity for the movement. I don't think anything like this would go down well in official circles and it would be sure to be criticised but as the old saying goes there's no such thing as bad publicity. Maybe the investigative press will find it anyway but we could help them to 'find' it. There is sure to be comment and editorial on 9/11 conspiracy theory as a follow on.
What do we think and maybe we should not get involved directly and respect PJ's wish that the Zeitgeist Movement should not be known mainly as the 9/11 conspiracy theory movement. Personally I think the cat's already out of the bag as all this information is already in the public domain.
I haven't really followed this news story much, but I saw today a clip of Obama saying about how the US don't have a problem with Iran or its people, just their leader; and how he wanted the people of Iran to do what THEY think is right...
My first thought is that it was basically a veiled threat saying get rid of your leader or we'll come in and bomb the fuck out of you like we have done everywhere else and install our own brand of control, err.. I mean democracy.
Looks like having a foreign leader choose your leader for you is the only kind of 'democracy' the Iranian people are going to get either way.
Agreed. There are posts on the global Zeitgeist saying just the same and guessing when the US might wade in. Totally out of order which is where I can see we might benefit through the negative publicity becoming a positive as a movement that is fundamentally interested in understanding the truth and moving humanity forward on the same basis.
I just think we have to move quickly if we are to capitalise on the current news story where Ahmadinejad has outright accused the US of staging 9/11 for their own ends. If you read Peter's source notes, you'll need a good hour to get through the 9/11 section, it's damning to say the least. Wouldn't be surprised if Iran will draw their defence for the accusation from this.
Not for one moment do I agree that anymore war should be fought, neither do I agree that Iran is a free country. I think we, as probably one of many movements that would be seen as peaceful, need to be seen as friends of Iranians too. Given the country's heritage I suspect many would be in favour of an RBE rather than an Islamic state, thare are a large number of educated and worldly wise people there still.
Please follow the link and look at Peter's post. He needs his credibility to push all of us forward. Although his first film didn't provide the link to the RBE and TVP it did make some huge culpability claims against our current 'World Order' which I am certain are founded beyond any reasonable doubt.
This is where we could gain if the US - Iran conflict grows. Tricky situation as we're not for politics but we might have to get invovled by claiming the higher moral ground on the basis of the fundamentals of where we want to get to by way of a RBE and all that it entails.
Funny how you seem to have decided that consopiracy theories generally are crackpot nonsense to be avoided yet since the Iranian PM's speech you are now giving credibility to 9/11 conspiracy theories.
You have agreed that there is no 'Illuminati' conspiracy seemingly on the basis that they were outlawed in the 19th century, but that is just naivity. If such a cospiracy was/is real it would have simply changed the name! Just because something has been banned does not mean tha it ceases to exist.
Am I wrong in thinking that one of the key insights of Zeitgeist is that competition-based systems inevitably create conspiracy and deceit?
Have you forgotten that the presence of a monetary system causes conspiracies to exist?
If not, why try and distance yourself from 'conspiracy' theories before conducting suitable research?
Hi Jonathan, it's a little hard to follow your points as it is not clear who specifically or which points made by others you are responding to - could you clarify this with quotes where appropriate?
Jonathan. This confusion is of my making and all goes to show how specific meaning through use of language is important. My initial concerns were based on any connection with TZM to conspiracy theories founded on alien (extra-terestrial) or the Illumminati (my original understanding of the definition as a C19 organisation on enlightenment or the religious enlightenment perpetrated by the catholic religion leading to acts like the Spanish Inquistion. To my way of thinking either of these sources, literally, for serious consideration as conspiracy theories being acted out and influencing our world today would be crackpot.
Consequently and having seen both Peter Joseph's and Jaques Fresco's use the term illuminati and in neither context could I link it to my traditional understanding of the term as applied to the movement or points they were making I checked various dictionary definitions and found it could simply mean those with additional knowledge, or enlightenment, of information relating to a situation. No problem with this at all, common sense and obvious. It applies in business and government and has historical precedence.
Having seen the original Zeitgeist and being convinced that false flag attacks have been orchestrated in the past for political gain and having checked some of these out through independent sources, excepting 9/11, it is clear that conspiracy has occurred in the past and is very likely to be still.
I came across a post by Peter Joseph on the global site that was basically a rebuttal of the original Zeitgeist debunkers and critics. Not sure if anyone has checked out the link I provided above but he has put a huge amount of effort in especially by producing a massive document by way of a companion guide. An scepticism that I had regarding a 9/11 was conspiracy was diminished to be virtually nil. Part of Peter's conclusion on the 9/11 section is as follows (note there are 114 points) -
"While each point stands on its own, the picture painted when everything is brought together creates a probabilistic view which serves to create what we could call “The Truth” of 9/11. If you objectively compare this data set and inferential assessment to the “Official” theory, you will likely find that very little evidence serves to support the government’s account, while nearly everything points to an inside job."
Moving on to Ahmadinejad, he has created news headlines by saying in his speech to the UN that he believes 9/11 was as the consequence of US conspiracy. The TZM has come about directly as a reult of Peter Joseph's original production and consequent partnership with The Venus Project. Peter Joseph has recently defended all of the criticism of Zeitgeist: The Movie through an edited re-release and wordy companion guide. I felt that the movement could benefit from publicity on the back of Ahmadinejad's accusation although it would most likely be negative under the adage there is 'no such thing as bad publicity'. I know that Peter Joseph is in favour of this as he has said as much on the global forum where he believes the movement has gained new members by way of being introduced by negative publicity. After all a reported scandal generates interest. Also he has said that he doesn't want TZM to be linked to 9/11 as its primary message hence my original post asking what members think of trying to get publicity on the back of political controversy.
So in conclusion I think that some conspiracy theory is crackpot and we should not be involved or associated with it. Illumanti is a loose term and is open to misinterpretation. I think we should only use it where we qualify its use in context if we have to use it at all. Hope this clarifies my position.
"While each point stands on its own, the picture painted when everything is brought together creates a probabilistic view which serves to create what we could call “The Truth” of 9/11. If you objectively compare this data set and inferential assessment to the “Official” theory, you will likely find that very little evidence serves to support the government’s account, while nearly everything points to an inside job."
If Peter Joseph has become a Troofer that's very sad.
Surely it's always been clear that Peter Joseph believes 9/11 was a conspiracy to support the political assertion that terrorism was the largest enemy of the US. This is one of the key themes in Zeitgeist: The Movie. I would really recommend you read his post on the global site and all of the support documenation he has put together for his claims. There is no doubt about his position on this.
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&I...
Quite apart from the facts of the case (which only point to a conspiracy by fanatic Muslims and to the political use of what happened to invade iraq and Afghanistan) I can't see any advantage in lining up with the Troofers. Just the opposite. It will (and has) led to the movement being dismissed as conspiraloons, so detracting from the main aim of working for a moneyfree world in which the Earth's resources have become the common heritage of humanity.
Have you actually read Peter's post and the companion guide amonetariste? You'll find nothing lunatic and plenty of facts that raise questions that are so far unanswered. It isn't limited to 9/11 but has a huge section on religion and further expansion on other topics brought up in the film. So far as I can make out there are no 'troofers' that have a complete take on all of the problems of the world and, significantly, a solution.
The injustice and corruption in the world is exactly what we are fighting to move away from. If the market economy worked just fine, was egalitarian and all was sweetness and light in the world there'd be no need for TZM. It is precisely because there is political and financial corruption much of it undeniably as a result of conspiracy that we have come in to being. We want a change in the world for the better which logically will culminate in the RBE. Until we get there we can't ignore what is going on around us.
Hoping to find a Peter Joseph lecture on blogtalkradio as part of his series that Feral kindly posted a link for and not finding a more recent one that I had already reviewed I was taken to check out his prior blog to the lecture series. TZM: Complaints and Attack The Zeitgeist Movement Weekly Report [6/30/10] with Peter Joseph "TZM: Complaints and Attack" I think this is worthy of it's own forum topic. A huge resource for all of us trying to spread the word and encountering negative responses.
So that's where this comes from -
01.02.27 Question 40 - 'The Illuminati and conspiracy themes such as 9/11 as an internal job makes the movement look unprofessional.'
01.04.20 forward '...Obviously 9/11 truth has nothing to do with TZM directly and as far as the Illuminati that idea has never existed in my films nor have I ever condoned such a thing'
'..the term Illuminati exists now as a fear based ploy to sell ignorant people books and DVDs on the premise of fear. That's it. There's no official masonic group anymore and the idea that this group controls the world today is to me no more than an easy way out, a superstitious scapegoat...'
'...fundamental new order Christians are the ones that seem to push this Illuminati stuff the most, it fits in well with their good and evil dogma'
I'm afraid that I'm not a speed typist so I've only transcribed what I thought were the most relevant points to this topic.
As jhabbott pointed out we're the closest thing to any truth or reality movement similar to an 'illuminati' movement founded in Bavaria. To me the term is so loaded with ambiguity as to be of no use, unless as I said you before. you qualify its useage. Far better words and concepts to describe our real world order, corporatocracy for example.
To disagee with PJ mildy. Freemasons hall still stands proudly in London. I learned after his death that my grandfather was a freemason. I have absolutely no doubt that he was never in any way involved in subverting world affairs. Maybe the most it brought to him was contravening some planning order here or there and getting himself up the ladder to be a president for the sport he loved. I don't condone it but I know it is not the root of monetarism and our ultimate decline if we follow our curent path.
Take care people